Discuss this topic

Book of Love

 - the voice of Ter

(With apologies to Bruce... sorry for stealing a bit of your thunder, but your e-mail inspired me...)

I'm not getting any younger. Turning 32 in a few days.

A friend of mine met this girl at a party. He told me that she was 20, Asian, attractive, and completely on a different plane of existence than we were. She went to Western for an undergrad in business, and had aspirations to go to Harvard for a joint MBA and LLB (which was impossible: "LLB" is a Canadian law designation, American colleges grant a "JD," but he didn't disabuse her of the notion because she was kinda hot.)

And I thought: "Good lord, 20 year olds and their ambition. When I was 20, I guess I had that kind of ambition. Now, I just pray that I get to the end of the day without going completely fucking bonkers."

I guess thats the way it is when you get older. Things that used to mean a heck of a lot to you suddenly become less important. Call it perspective, call it apathy, its really a mixed bag. There are, however, some things that persist, merely because the patterns are sometimes too difficult to ignore. Bruce said it best: Beware banana boys and banana girls - the long-awaited but dreaded WMAF diatribe is coming!

Admittedly, when I was going out with someone, I tended to notice it less (or rather, I'd accord it the attention it generally deserves in conjunction with getting some every other night.) But now that I'm single and bitter again, I find myself free to re-mount that horse and charge head first into the sunset. It's something that I've noticed for a very, very long time, and I still notice it, regardless of who hard I try not to:

- I live around U of T, and its difficult NOT to notice the sheer number of WMAF couples, and a distinct lack of AMWF couples (or AM-anything couples for that matter, but that's neither here nor there.) Huh.

- A white guy who sits a few cubes down from me spends a lot of his free time looking at pictures of Asian chickies on www.asianchickies.com (or something.) He has a poster of a cute Asian model in a bikini taped to the ceiling (presumably because he can lean back and relax in style, after a long day of looking at Asian chickies on the Web.) How. . . nice.

- One drunken night, I was browsing the web with a few buddies (thats pretty geeky, I know.) We ended up on match.com, and it was difficult NOT to notice the number of Asian women advertising on the site specifically looking for white guys (not to mention the number of white girls specifically looking for white guys). Gee, its good to feel wanted.

- I remember back in 1996, I was arguing with a good friend at the corner of 96th and Broadway down in NYC about the disparity between WMAFs and AMWFs. He disagreed vehemently, and we continued to argue for a good 20 minutes, during which we saw a minimum of 4 WMAF couples and zero AMWF couples. I said "did you see that?" and he had to shake his head and admit that he did.

Five or ten years ago, I'd be a lot more bothered by it, I suppose - you're young, you have a fire in your belly, and you sturm und drang against the utter injustice of life, the universe, and everything, especially at ourselves, because we all know that we are the center of the universe, right? But you live a bit and you do realize that it's a large and very confusing world out there, that everyone has their own story, and that concepts such as justice and equality and closure are largely man-made ideals, that only marginally map onto the canvas of real life. And you realize that the only thing you can really change is yourself, and your way of perceiving things.

Personally, I think I'm a reasonable guy. I do know that deep down, it's just one of those things, and at the end of the day, Love really is all you need - you find that special someone who you can build something special with, most everything else - games, politics, petty feelings and insecurities - become peripheral at best.

Still, it doesn't take away from an eerie pattern that tends to creep up on you every so often. I guess it'd be a lot worse to be in other socio-economic stations in life. But, this is still MY station, for better or worse. I am Banana Boy; this is a Banana Boy thing. You do what you can to understand, and if you're lucky, you can write a book about it and help a few others understand along the way.

Filler

 - the voice of Hot Soup

Okay, I haven't had time to write anything, but as a placeholder I'm going to direct you to a previous article. (When commenting on that article, kindly do not use the phrase "paranoid schizophrenic." Thank you.)

Not So Different After All

 - the voice of Fervidus Humanus

Dating for bananas shouldn't be any different from dating for everyone else. I never considered it so until recently. When I was younger, I didn't care about race, and it didn't really factor into my perception of attractiveness. Certainly, there were a few things which had to be in place from the start: she had to speak English fluently, and I had to know her pretty well to begin with. I wouldn't even think about dating someone whom I didn't consider a friend already. Aside from that, all she had to do was like the same games, or sports, or movies, or whatever, and we would both get along just fine! Yes, it was a very naive and innocent view of dating, but that's what youth is. It's dreadfully cliched, but things are different now.

In this whole debate, a line has to drawn between dating, and looking for a marriage partner. Once those are drawn, there is a lot less internal conflict. A dating partner would be someone with whom you would have some fun, share hilarious and memorable experiences, with much fewer consequences, since it would be a short-term commitment. In contrast, a marriage partner would have to be all of those things, but also someone you could live with, possibly have children with, and grow old with. In the words of my thermodynamics professor, they are "similar, but not the same." Some might argue that creating definitions such as this would be a crime, definitely not the romantic "let's just see where this goes" thing to do.

We bitch and complain about our interracial dating problems, but give little regard to the fact that the (white, brown, black, etc.) people we speak of dating are under just as much social pressure as we are. Perhaps they have less of a problem with interracial dating than we Asians do, or perhaps they have more. Some cultures are more open about this sort of thing, which can be a good thing. But in general, I'm sure interracial dating is just as hot an issue with any race, and we shouldn't feel as excluded as we say we are.

Dating at the Banana Cabana

 - the voice of banana_appeal

Thanks to my position at a yuppie clothing store - named after a curved yellow fruit - I see an interesting subset of society. Mostly yuppies. But I have to admit that the number of WMAF couples is very high. But so is the number of AMOF. The ratio works out to approximately 5 to 1.

As a single Asian girl, I can't help but feel a resounding "you go girl" sentiment towards the Asian Females. Most of the guys are pretty good looking. And obviously besotted with them.

Whereas I get a distinct sinking feeling when I see an AMOF because inevitably these Asian Males are definitely the cream of the crop. The most desirable Asian Males, secure in their masculinity and exuding a raw sexual aura - as well as sensitivity, intelligence AND HUMOUR!

They are ultimately athletic, not pansies, and not necessarily with apparent high earning power. They are desirable specimens regardless of race.

Part of the sinking feeling has to do with jealousy. Why can't I attract guys (especially Asian guys) like that? I have these thoughts that by virtue of my asianness I should be granted top priority and additional points. But that is a very narrow view.

There are just as many Asian girls out there who are wonderful human beings that Asian guys don't want to date. Are these Asian girls expected to sit at home and whine? No, most of them accept their situation and they turn their attention to someone who will appreciate them.

There are some Asian guys who expect the world to be handed to them...The perfect Asian girlfriend to drop into their lap to adore them and cherish even their warts and imperfections. But of course they want to choose who it is. Trust me... the Asian guy who gets the desirable girl actually has to work at it - unless you're a major hunk like Russell Wong.

The discomfort of WMAF/AMOF is not solely an Asian issue. Many other cultures view interracial dating in a similar manner (though sometimes it's not a "you go girl" but rather a distasteful "isn't that below you" sentiment). The animosity received by these interracial couples is almost as strong as the animosity received by couples from different Castes in Indian culture. It's just not as visually obvious.

Maybe Interracial dating is for those who desire something different, a life less ordinary, or a breaking with the mold. A bit of escapist adventure. You might even say some of them are trying to escape from their asian heritage, which they secretly loathe.

Or you could just say they're just exploiting their own uniqueness in group settings. Maybe, just maybe they happen to find someone they're compatible with.

It's hard enough finding someone we're mutually attracted to, and mutually compatible with - why would we want to eliminate any possibilities? And isn't it a natural fall out that we date or marry someone who moves in our social circle?

There is always something to be said about a shared common culture. And Canadiana can be a shared culture.

I know I take advantage of being able to date non-Asians. Shouldn't I afford that generosity towards my male counterparts? And Asian Males should understand this and afford the same generosity towards the females.

And yes, Asian Males do have to work harder to get that "other" category by overcoming negative stereotypes. But Asian Females also have to work hard to ensure that their "other" partner sees them as more than the submissive and meek stereotypes.

Maybe I'm just a bitter guy who can't understand women - asian or white

 - the voice of Confiture

There's nothing worse than a Banana boy going on a date. Everything is stacked against him. First of all he's lucky to even get to go on a date. I think the typical guy has a hard enough time as it is trying to understand how to actively impress the female. Then there are all the weird things you do when trying to court a girl. Add in the banana aspect and the situation just gets even worse. The banana boy doesn't know whether to be asian or to be white - most of the time they want you to be both and only the good parts. Now what the good parts are, I'm not too sure...

Actually, come to think of it, for me it's even worse. I'm a banana boy, who happens to be a geek - as many of my friends tell me. Who knows, maybe I'm just a bitter guy who can't understand women - asian or white.

For me, I think I've only been on one date and that was my first - it was a disaster and it got nowhere fast, but Wayne's World will be forever a special movie. In this experience, the parents were even worse than I could have expected. First they instilled into me that they did not want me dating till I was out of high school - then they insisted that I didn't date anyone until I graduated from university. I think dating for them meant being with that one woman who you will eventually marry - after you're financially secure and own a house. After the first disasterous date (she was blonde) I ended up going out with an Indian, seeing a red head, falling head over heals over an athletic blonde, then an oriental female, and finally going out with my current long time girlfriend. Notice in all this, there was no dating...even my girlfriend now says that we've never been on a date. I never went on what you might call a date after my first one.

I was able to attract my few girl friends by not doing anything. In fact, I in advertantly played hard to get for the longest time. All my active attempts failed, but my passive attempts were met with startling success. Could it be that the route to finding someone is to not look and then suddenly find yourself in a relationship?

So what does this say about dating? Well, dating I think is something you do to get to know each other from a cold start - from what I can gather. I think being friends first then finding each other might be the solution. The thing is, it gets rid of dating...

But I digress. Dating and seeing women for a banana boy is brutal because of the parent factor. They are truly Chinese, but we aren't. They want a woman who will stay at home, do the laundry, clean the dishes and keep the house clean. Oh yes, and preferably chinese, white is acceptable but no dark skinned people. Bananas, myself at least, are not truly Chinese. I want a person who can think for themselves, strong willed, intellegent and somewhat career oriented. This has, for me, led to dating in secret when I was a teenager. By that I mean, they know I'm seeing someone, but nothing is said about it so the parents are happily in denial. This puts a damper on things because this is the time when parentental guidance is needed the most. Their experiences can help here, but there is no communication so I was left to myself to figure out the opposite sex. I still haven't figured it out.

Now, that's only one level of complexity. Imagine that the other side is dark skinned...prepare for a war between you and your parents. Even worse, imagine that the other side has a different oriental background or philosophy. Now, that's just a war on all sides waiting to happen. We're lucky the parents are from another generation or nuclear war would be the result instead of just saving face.

To stop my rambling...in short, the dating for the banana generation has a lot of turmoil on top of the normal dating jitters. The culture, totally confused...which hopefully will be relieved for the second generation banana.

Are banana girls as confused as banana boys?

miscegenation

 - the voice of Hot Soup

We're sitting in our university bar, beer bottles in hand. "Why the hell do they all go out with white guys?" he asks me, for the hundredth time since I've known him. I just shrug.

A Japanese-American guy on the Internet writes a ten-page FAQ about the disparity between the number of one type of interracial couple and its mirror image.

"He was cute," she says afterwards, "but all he wanted to do was introduce me to his white friends. Who were all obviously huge rice kings."

Walking down the street in Vancouver, I pass an Asian man holding hands with a Caucasian woman. For some reason I have that goofy we're-all-one-world feeling and I just want to beam a big smile at the couple. Why isn't it that way when I pass a white man and his Japanese ESL student girlfriend?

. . .

So yes, the topic is, white men and their Asian girlfriends: WM/AF.

I'm going to pull out the sociobiological card to explain this phenomenon. Men are programmed to look for healthy young girls with great bodies to bear their children, but women are biologically geared towards finding providers: reasonably healthy, socially and economically successful men to help raise their kids. The Man is the one with power, status, and normalcy (very important!) in our society, so naturally he's the alpha symbol of our society. And after all, what race do you think the Man is? Along these lines, white women have to be exceptional to step down the social ladder to marry, or even date, Asian or black men.

But if that's so, why are there many times more BM/WF marriages than there are BF/WM? The answer is the second disadvantage of the Asian male. Asian culture emphasizes cohesiveness, consensus, non-confrontation and socialization. These are all perceived as feminine qualities, especially in the more aggressive and independentist Western civilization. So, when these cultural traits are overlaid on Asians in North America, the average Asian woman is seen as desirably passive, while the Asian man is demasculinized. And back to that other disparity, black men and women are perceived as more aggressive, which is good for black men ("jungle fever") but not for their female counterparts.

Why does this resonate so strongly with my Asian male friends? Do they feel that their dateable women are being taken away, and that they can't "get" white women in some weird kind of retaliation? Do they really want to propagate their own culture by dating within the race? And how do Asian women feel about being fetishized for their passivity and ultrafemininity?

What do you think?

Rearview mirror

 - the voice of Pi

Walking around downtown and the university campus it's one of those unavoidable sightings. There are those annoying couples holding hands, cuddling, and even kissing (how dare they!). Toronto is a very multicultural city and it is no surprise to see many interracial couples. Couples of every combination and permutation of cultures exist. Some kinds of couples are very common while others are quite rare. If I do a quick count of the number of Asian/White couples, I would easily lose count within a few minutes. If I further break it down into White Male/Asian Female (WM/AF) and White Female/Asian Male (WF/AM), there is a striking asymmetry. WM/AF couples dominate. I can spot them everywhere whereas I might go days without ever seeing a WF/AM couple.

Why does such asymmetry exist?

One could say that Asian Females and White Males are more attractive or better at dating, so it is natural that more of them are in relationships. But that is an unsatisfactory explanation for me and probably for you as well. I think it is a complicated mix of social interactions. I will present some very broad generalizations of what may be some driving factors.

Western male society has some sort of complex with "exotic women." Asian women fit into this category and so they are sought after by the white male. Of course, there is the flip side to this. The Asian female must reciprocate in the relationship. Their rationale for dating white males is a little more complicated. First, there is the idea of social class and the perception that Caucasians are higher up in the ladder and so it is socially advantageous. Secondly,

^C
^C
^C
*ABORT*

Above is my first draft that I started writing a few weeks ago but my perspective has shifted recenlty. As I read the postings by other Banana Bloggers, I've decided that Bananas aren't completely incompetent at dating after all. We've all gone out on dates, have a significant other, or even have long-term partners. As much as we would like to think that Bananas are a special case in dating, I highly doubt that we are. What we are all experiencing is a typical mid-twenties type of realization. We're starting our grown up lives, and more than likely it is not how we envisioned it when we were entering high school. Among the things missing are a satisfying job, luxury car, exotic house, and long-term partner. You may be working a crappy job, driving a crappy car, living in a crappy apartment, and be in a crappy relationship. It won't always be like this though because you'll get that promotion so that you can make more money to buy a better car and move to a better place. Too bad that money can't buy a better boyfriend/girlfriend.

I imagine that looking back in ten years, we may wonder why we were so bitter in the days of our youth. Or it may be that in ten years we may be more bitter. Nonetheless, regardless of the outcome, I propose that what we as Bananas are facing is nothing new and is a common experience among all people in our age group. The question then becomes if it happens disproportionately more to Bananas than to other groups. Since I don't have any statistics, I will not comment any futher.

What's the big deal if I date a white boy?

 - the voice of Li'l Polar Bear

As Valentines Day encroaches itself upon us all, us single Banana folk are no different than others in wanting to be with someone we love, who'd go to the ends of the earth to make us happy.

However, unlike others, we have the extra little factor of race that bothers others more than it does us. For some, we have parents that frown upon us, if not forbid us, from dating someone not of our own race. Even some of those parents who say they don't mind do mind when you start dating someone not of your own race.

Parental "approval" aside, we wonder who is it that we are to be with. Should we be with fellow Bananas or with Caucasians or it doesn't really matter as long as they make you happy?

This is something that I've pondered over time. I cannot see myself with someone who is FOB (Fresh Off the Boat) or FOP (Fresh Off the Plane) since I was born and raised in a country where ideals and lifestyles are quite different. However, whether I am to end up with a white guy or a fellow Banana boy, I still don't know. On one hand, dating a Banana boy would make my parents/relatives happy and we'll share similar Banana ideals (Chinese mixed with Western). On the other hand, if I am as Banana as the elder generation seem to think I am, then what's the big deal if I date a white boy? I mean, I'm "just like them" anyways, except for the fact that I look different. In the end, we're all looking for someone who can complement us, so does it really matter what race they are?

Which brings me to the point of people assuming the race of the guy I'm dating. Perhaps it's due to my past dating history of Chinese guys, perhaps not. With the exception of my fellow Bananas, most, if not all, non-Chinese people and most Chinese people automatically assume that he is Asian. When I say that he's white, most are stunned if not shocked. As one white guy put it, "I thought you only dated Chinese guys." With a statement like that, I wasn't sure if I were to be insulted or not. He simply assumed that I only dated Chinese guys and guys like him didn't stand a chance. To a certain extent, assuming I only date guys of my own race brands me as some sort of racist.

Then there's the issue of people thinking that I'm "selling out" my culture by dating someone non-Chinese. Heck, just because I date a Chinese guy doesn't guarantee that he'll keep our culture. Same with dating a white guy; it doesn't mean that he won't want to be a part of my culture. According to some, I'm not "Chinese" anyways! Does it really matter if he's Chinese or not? Whether my culture survives through me depends solely on me, not on the race of the person I date.

Although it doesn't matter to me what race I or other Banana girls date, like Hot Soup, I too don't echo the same feelings towards Banana boys dating non-Banana girls. I can't help but feel inadequate. It's like "what is it that those girls have that I don't?!?! We're both brought up the same way with the same ideals. Pick me! Pick me!".

Perhaps all I want is a Banana boy of my own after all.

Breaking Down Walls and Drawing Lines

 - the voice of IronBuddha (guest)

I somehow fail to see why it becomes any more of an issue for an Asian to date someone outside their race and culture. From where I stand, this is as much an issue for both parties involved. Perhaps I'm one of the few on this discussion board that has had extremely open parents who've welcome all my past relationships with open arms and it's my girlfriend that has had to work for acceptance within their family.

Fact of the matter is, modern dating is a nightmare! Talk to any of your single friends and you will hear the same thing no matter what race they are. How many times have I heard women want a nice, sensitive guy with a good sense of humour (which I've learned to interpret as trainable, homofriendly guy that laughs at all her jokes) while all those men I know are single and the women are off running with the most assinine fools I've ever met. [Disclaimer to women: relax men are equally guilty with their 'I want just want someone that's down to earth' comment]

Then there's the not so phenomenal amount of posts about objecting parents which really made me question what is so different in my particular family dynamic. In fact it wasn't so long ago that I heard the exact same things like 'keep your priority on schooling son' or threats that they'd disown me if I ever dated anyone of coloured skin. So where and how did these walls break down? I am perhaps one of the harshest judges of my own heritage and discussing those views and criticism openly at the dinner table was responsible for this paradigm shift. Of this I'm convinced. Sure we've had heated arguments, some to this day where we share opposite views - that's only normal. But what was key was the number of times we've swayed each other to re-evaluate our views.

Banana... bamboo... Is it just me or do some of you also find it ironic that we would work so hard to break down the racial tensions and have a backlash from within our own race? Truth be told, I don't particularly think of myself as a Banana. I know my cultural history, can't stand people who call mahjong with 'chicken' hands, video game with the best of them and went the distance with anyone in cantopop at a karaoke bar. Maybe I am a banana by definition, an eccentric asian that finds himself more at home with the western society and ideas striving to find a balance with my Asian roots and tendencies. I'd also have to say that I'm very fortunate live in a very progressive family which has embraced some of the banana ideals. Bottom line - communicate! You've all used your voice here and been heard, now go apply the same principles. It may not seem like they've heard you, but you'd be surprised what gives way over time.